Engine rebuild disaster

[pac66]

I purchased a Toronado that had a lot of engine blow by. Last fall I pulled the engine apart and found 56 broken rings and 1 piston with broken lands. My engine rebuilder rebuilt it with new pistons & rings (30 over), new mains, rods and cam bearings, new cam , lifters, push rods, rockers, bridges, valves (both exhaust and intake) , new valve springs, and new standard oil pump.

I installed the engine back in the car and found the following problems:

1- excessive oil consumption 1 qt per 40 miles
2- ringing noise heard though the exhaust system, seems to be originating from the area of the cylinder head #8 or #6 piston, but resonating and amplified by the exhaust system.
3- Oil light on dash comes on when the engine is 1 qt low on oil.

I pulled the valve cover on the noise side of the engine and started the engine, at idle I have 8 fountains of oil coming out of the push rods ( continuous stream goes up about 3 inches above the rockers) . The return holes in the head is not able to return the oil fast enough to the pan, therefore fills the valve cover and leaks down the valve stems into the combustion chamber, hence my oil consumption. I pulled the intake off and checked the lifters to see if the oil metering valves was present, they are. The oil metering valves on the new lifters are flat disks with two holes in them ( the lifters came from Egge). My engine rebuilder contacted Mondello, and their expert stated that I had too much oil in the heads, his solution was to put restrictor push rods in the engine, I bought a set of those from him and installed last weekend.
I drove the car 10 miles and ran it in the garage for ½ hour and found it burned ½ quart of oil and the noise resonating through the exhaust system is the same. I pull the valve cover off and ran the engine for a moment at idle. Now I get a fine stream of oil out of the push rods that will go 2 feet in the air.

Today I installed a oil pressure gauge in place of the idiot light sending unit. My oil pressure is 7# hot idle, 35# at 2000 rpm, 35# at 2500 rpm. These readings I consider normal for a standard pump.

My rebuilder has no idea what is wrong & neither do I. Has anyone ever run into a similar problem with a stock 425?

[pac66]

Sorry I did a typo on the second sentence, should be 6 broken rings, not 56.

[toro_mike]

Are you absolutely sure a high performance oil pump was not installed? Maybe somebody else has a better idea, but that's the only reason I can imagine for the heads getting flooded with oil!

However, I am assuming that all of the oil paths back down to the pan are clear. The noise may be caused by the car running super lean because of the influx of oil into the combustion chambers. It could also be oil starvation, which could prove a clog issue. I'd run the car minimally if I were you! You do not want to wipe out your cylindar walls after already going .30 over!

Either way, I think the motor should be yanked. Make sure the oil pump is indeed the standard one and check all oil paths.

Let us know what you do on this!

[69W34]

I would agree with T-M you've got a oil volume problem, other than the spring control with in the oil pump itself, there were no restrictors in those blocks. It is possible that the spring in the pump is faulty as in broken, weak or some other fashion screwed up. Hi-Volume oil pump are great for racing application but not worth a $#!+ for street use.
Being mindful of where the oil sending unit is, it reads down stream of the crank and cam and ahead of the lifters an push rods if the light is coming on the bottom end in all likelihood is starving. With out sufficient return gallery's HV oil pumps can flood the top end and starve / wreck the bottom end in very short order.
I will add that restricted push rods can adversely affect lifter performance as in a 'full pump up' crashing valve into the pistons*1 bending push rods and braking rocker retainers and so on.
Cause and effect everything within the oiling system is designed to work in concert with one another any changes with out compensating adjustments will wreak havoc. Though a big PITA I would not drive or run the motor an at your earliest convenience pull the motor and get to the bottom of it (no pun intended) as in oil pump.

*1 said experiences were very early on mid 70 and not with Olds motors.

[pac66]

Thanks for responding to my plea.

Let me give you an up date. I have talked with Mondello ( the people who sold me the restricted push rods) and they say that there is a problem with the lifters form Egge, Egge says they sold 8 sets of lifters in October (when I bought my set ) and I am the only one that is having a problem. Mondello says that they have seen problems with Egge lifters before and they tell me Egge gets the lifters from China. Mondello has told me to send them the lifters and they can check them and if it is the lifters, fix them. My engine rebuilder agrees. I have just finished taking the lifters out and will send them to Mondello after Christmas.

As far as the oil pump being wrong, I am leaning against that right now as the oil pump is a Elgin #EM-22F witch corresponds to a standard pump. The pump has a pressed in oil pick up with indicates a standard pump vs. a bolt on pick up with would indicate a high volume pump (that’s what I have been told anyway).

I will keep you posted with what I find with the lifters

Jon

[69W34]

w e l l ... this does not address the oil 'light' indicating one, lack of pressure or low oil / pump bottom end starvation, again all of which is up stream of the lifters. If a standard pump can push that much oil thru the lifters I would be more than a little amazed. As far as 'outward appearance' there is no difference between the two pumps. There are two pick up styles however though both slip/press in one has a square pickup with bracket that bolts at / with the rear main. The pickup itself (In my opinion) appears to be some what restrictive. It had a number stamped tag ID-ing it if can fin it I'll post a photo.

In a follow up: today RM parts are NOT what they could be on a recent rebuild I was given a water pump that when set impeller down on flat surface one could spin the housing! in short the impeller was not presses deep enough onto the shaft. With RM brake master cylinders arriving DOA among other things, bad pumps / lifter and missed boxed parts are of no surprise.

by all means keep us posted

PS napa - advanced - o'reilly - whom ever should be able to provide a photo of the pump's either through the computer or the books the latter of which the counter person must willing go there. Most can't read anything if it not on the screen in front of them.

[xgecko]

Not sure if this will help but here is the oiling path diagram from my service manual.

FWIW I have a hi volume oil pump from Mondello; my sob story dates back some 25 or so years when I rebuilt my first Toronado motor and used a cheapo PAW oil pump. After 300 miles the bearings went and I had to pull it and redo the bottom end. I went with the same Mondello pump that I used recently and both times got good pressure and no problems. I bought my cam, lifters, pushrods and rockers from Mondello and have had no issues to date with more than 2,000 miles on the motor last year.

You did follow the correct break-in procedure using a high ZDDP oil for the break-in and ran it between 2,000 and 3,000 RPM for at least 20 minutes when you first started it? If not then you may have contributed to whatever problem you are fighting, although that will not fully explain it as the break-in is mostly to ensure the flat tappet cam is properly burnished.

I can't think of anything right now that seems worth mentioning other than to wonder if you have a blockage in one of the oil passages. When I got my block back from the shop I blew all passages out to make sure no crud from machining was left behind. I assume your rebuilder did this, but you never know... and it could possible be an explanation or part of the explanation.

Having been through a much simpler version of what you are going through I feel for you. I sure hope you get it figured out!

[pac66]

I did use a high ZDDP oil in the engine upon initial starting and I pre lubed it also, the ringing noise started as soon as the engine was run. I ran the engine initially at about 2k rpm for over 20 minutes. My engine rebuilder has been in business for over 30 years, he has done 5 engines for me over the last 20 years (one Ford, one Chevy, 2 Packard and a Chris-craft engine). I did ask him if he had cleaned out the oil passages and checked them and he had. We have restored some unusual engines together but never had a problem with any of them.

I called Mondello last week and they had not received the lifters yet, I will call them this week.

Thanks for responding and I will keep you posted.

[xgecko]

I will offer that my oil pressure is around 35 PSI at idle and naturally rises with RPM. At cold startup it is quite high due to the hi-vis oil I am using (Castrol 20W-50 for classic cars which apparently is now 5W-50 for my next oil change). Still haven't made up my mind if this is an issue but so far it has not seemed to be a problem.

I tend to doubt the lifters have much to do with it unless they truly are crap. However, I am not familiar with the brand you bought and I have read a fair amount regarding issues with the cheaper Chinese made lifters. Strange thing is that one can certainly get high quality products made in China and being made in China does not automatically mean a product is junk.

I also note that using the restricted push rods and getting a much higher jet of oil implies a high volume situation that also suggests high pressure. The reading you get at idle is very strange given this; as I said my idle pressure (about 600-700 RPM) is roughly 35 PSI or so. 7 PSI seems very low especially given what you say; it could be explained by the oil being high in pressure and volume at the pump and part of the system but it seems to have dropped by the time it gets to the sensor. This indicated there is a pressure drop somewhere before the sensor so that might help guide your investigation.

I suspect the pump may be producing too much volume somehow. I would try replacing it with a stock pump for reference; presumably a stock pump will work fine and if nothing else trying one eliminates one variable. A royal pain in the tail for sure, and if there is any way for your builder to run the engine on a stand it would make it much easier to debug.

I sure hope you figure it out before you break your bank. These kinds of things can be both expensive and very demoralizing; keep your spirits high and hope for the best.

One final thought: Mondello has done well by me but I have seen many stories of how bad their customer service can be and I have seen hints of this when dealing with them. Be very careful and wary with them and be sure you think carefully about what they tell you. Most of the time I think they will do a good job of helping you - Junior Castro particularly seems pretty knowledgeable and very helpful but nonetheless when an outfit has the somewhat spotty rep they have it pays to be cautious. Overall I will continue to do business with them but if I have a solid alternative I might choose that over them given what I have heard.

[pac66]

I wonted to give everyone an up date on the 425 engine problems. Mondello received the Egge lifters on 1/3/12 , when I talked with them they said that the lifters were bad but they could fix them. They ordered new metering disks from somewhere and that took 3 ½ weeks to get, when they got those in they said they needed to get new spring clips that took another week. I then talked with them and they said they were going to reassemble them the next day and ship them back. The next week I called them to confirm their shipment and they told me the lifters were no good ( had too much wear on them after about 200 miles, not hardened properly) so they suggested I buy a set of lifters from them. I bought a set from them and asked that they ship the old lifters back so I could return them to Egge, they said they would. Mondello also said the my new cam might be the problem and they suggested I buy one of theirs. The cam I had put in was just a factory grind, however they said that it may be ground too small and causing the lifters to sit too low in the engine. This I didn’t buy as the preload was fine on the initial rebuild of the engine, but I discussed it with my machine shop and they discussed it with their cam supplier and agreed that there was no problem. The new lifters arrived, but not the old ones. I installed the new lifters into the engine after taking one apart to see what the metering disk looked like. The metering disk was identical to the Egge lifters (flat disk with 2 holes in it .082 thousands dia holes). Needless to say after starting the engine I had the same problems. I drove the car 80 miles and it used 1 and 1/3 quarts of oil.
At this point I decided I needed to see what was really happening inside the valve cover, so I cut a hole in a valve cover and mounted a Plexiglas section in it. I could now watch the oil flow an the engine was running. With the engine at 1,000 to 1,700 rpm the valve cover would fill ½ way up with oil. I now decided to reengineer the car my self. I did 3 things, first I opened up the oil drain holes in the heads and the block so oil could drain out of the heads faster, then I made new metering disks for the lifters this time with only one hole in them and that hole with a .052 thousands dia. And last installed another set of valve guides and machined them for modern valve seals (instead of the old umbrella seals).
I reassemble the engine again and put my window valve cover on it. The oil coming out of the push rods is significantly diminished and the oil drains out of the heads much faster. After driving the car for about 150 miles no oil consumption. I still have a noise resonating through the exhaust system, but the engine seems to run great. It took 6 phone calls to Mondello and 1 month to finally get my original lifters back.

In conclusion for other people who rebuild these engines I would suggest checking your new lifters with your old lifters before reassembly and be very wary of dealing with Mondello.

Hope this helps other people