Just how bad are factory Drum brakes on '66?

[xgecko]

I highly recommend the Wilwood calipers - feel free to hold off until I absolutely confirm compatiblity - and the Royal Rotors cross drilled and slotted rotors. The calipers come in red or black and need the Stainless Steel brake line kit they also sell which provides the Banjo fittings.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/WIL-120-10936-RD/

http://www.ajusa.com/details/Royalty-Rotors-Slotted-and-Cross-Drilled-Rotors/145/RYL/9423/5705074?vc=RYL&pn=Slotted+and+Cross-Drilled+Rotors&vq=&

Apparently JCW also carries a comparable rotor from another company:

http://www.jcwhitney.com/slotted-and-cross-drilled-brake-rotors-pair/p2024320.jcwx?filterid=c15954d12190y1969j1

[Twilight Fenrir]

I highly recommend the Wilwood calipers - feel free to hold off until I absolutely confirm compatiblity - and the Royal Rotors cross drilled and slotted rotors. The calipers come in red or black and need the Stainless Steel brake line kit they also sell which provides the Banjo fittings.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/WIL-120-10936-RD/

http://www.ajusa.com/details/Royalty-Rotors-Slotted-and-Cross-Drilled-Rotors/145/RYL/9423/5705074?vc=RYL&pn=Slotted+and+Cross-Drilled+Rotors&vq=&

Apparently JCW also carries a comparable rotor from another company:

http://www.jcwhitney.com/slotted-and-cross-drilled-brake-rotors-pair/p2024320.jcwx?filterid=c15954d12190y1969j1

I dunno man... $400 for a set of calipers? that's more than the entire rest of the system, lol.

Those Rotors though... I was gonna look for some slotted rotors for helping 'em keep cool. So those will definitely be a part of my system.

[xgecko]

Is a loss of 8 lbs of unsprung weight along with better performance and the major coolness factor worth $400? Each of us has different values and budgets, so I get that, but think it through. You are going to go through all the work to upgrade to 1969 brake technology when for $400 more you can have 21st century technology.

When I am confronted with this kind of situation I take one of several paths.

First, you can drop the whopping $40 it costs for remanufactured stock calipers and then save up for the Wilwoods; the disadvantage is that you have to redo some work and bleed the lines again. Costwise this is not too bad, however, timewise it is a tad annoying.

Second, you can simply wait and go with the Wilwoods when your budget has the room for it. One way to get here is to go ahead and buy the knuckles and other hardware you need, swap all that stuff and when you start the actual work perhaps your budget has recovered sufficiently to allow you to order the Wilwoods. If this takes more than a month to do from now you will have my input on the Wilwoods to add to your data input and you may find you are willing to put them into your now recovering budget.

Finally, you can just decide that the improvement over the drums is sufficient for your driving style and that the $400 is better spent elsewhere. This may not be a bad decision at all, in fact, it may indeed be the best decision in certain circumstances.

Give it some careful thought, be patient, let me get mine installed and reviewed, and then your decision is likely to be pretty clear and something you will be happy to live with.

Hope that helps!

[Twilight Fenrir]

Is a loss of 8 lbs of unsprung weight along with better performance and the major coolness factor worth $400? Each of us has different values and budgets, so I get that, but think it through. You are going to go through all the work to upgrade to 1969 brake technology when for $400 more you can have 21st century technology.

When I am confronted with this kind of situation I take one of several paths.

First, you can drop the whopping $40 it costs for remanufactured stock calipers and then save up for the Wilwoods; the disadvantage is that you have to redo some work and bleed the lines again. Costwise this is not too bad, however, timewise it is a tad annoying.

Second, you can simply wait and go with the Wilwoods when your budget has the room for it. One way to get here is to go ahead and buy the knuckles and other hardware you need, swap all that stuff and when you start the actual work perhaps your budget has recovered sufficiently to allow you to order the Wilwoods. If this takes more than a month to do from now you will have my input on the Wilwoods to add to your data input and you may find you are willing to put them into your now recovering budget.

Finally, you can just decide that the improvement over the drums is sufficient for your driving style and that the $400 is better spent elsewhere. This may not be a bad decision at all, in fact, it may indeed be the best decision in certain circumstances.

Give it some careful thought, be patient, let me get mine installed and reviewed, and then your decision is likely to be pretty clear and something you will be happy to live with.

Hope that helps!

haha, well, I'm going to buy the knuckles right now, because I have access to them, and they're cheap at the moment. Either or both of which can change without warning.

I can't put the system in untill I find a set of disc wheels, and I'm going to go ahead and be picky about wanting chrome '67 ones... Or, whatever years will look similar to my original '66's

Getting into a discussion over modern and antique technology is kind of an interesting one to bring up around people who prefer antique cars to modern ones But, I digress. I can afford the Wildwoods, I'm just not sure that the difference in price would be offset by the difference in performance. If the stock calipers can lock up the wheels in a hard stop, what good will higher output calipers be? The lighter weight might be nice, but 8 lbs is nothing... Also, the "Coolness factor" is kind of moot, it's behind a 15" piece of steel, someone would have to be looking for them to find them... Unless you're talking about heat dissipation, which, would be a very valid argument in their favor.

As I said before, I can't put it all together until I find some wheels, so I'll wait and see what your opinion of them is. Having never had '69 calipers to begin with, I don't know if they could lock the wheels, or if they were lacking in some way.

[xgecko]

Ahhh... let me offer these observations... all intended to give you more data upon which to base your final decision; any bias you see here is a reflection of my personality more than any effort to get you to make a specific choice.

8 Lbs of unsprung weight is in fact quite significant with respect to ride quality. The concept of unsprung weight relates to weight that is involved in transmitting force to the rest of the car when a bump is encountered. The lower the unsprung weight the less force is transmitted to the car and the smoother the ride. 8 Lbs of weight in the engine compartment is pretty much unnoticible, however, 8 Lbs of unsprung weight should be quite noticible when it comes to ride quality.

The difference in braking performance is not related to the ability to lock up the wheels, rather, it has to do with scenarios such as coming down a long hill where you have to brake for extended periods of time. This is where the cross drilled and slotted rotors will work in tandem with aluminum brake calipers to dissipate significantly more heat and thus reduce or eliminate brake fade. I live in the Pacific Northwest where I will be driving on mountain roads and so this is critical for me; again, your driving style may differ but you may still value fade resistance.

Finally, the twin pistons will improve brake feel and performance from an application standpoint. The responsiveness of the brake pedal feel should be significantly better than that provided by the single massive piston in the OEM design.

As for waiting to get my real world impressions that makes eminent sense irrespective of any of my other comments.

Coolness factor is of course all in the eye of the beholder, and your comments about people that prefer antique cars to modern cars is certainly a factor as well.

I freely admit I cannot conceive of why anyone would not want to combine the performance of modern technology with their passion for the antique car; this reflects my personality more than anything else. I want my Toronado essence with the most up to date tech I can get my hands on; eventually I want fuel injection, Distributorless ignition, modern seats, and pretty much anything else I can get my hands on that will bring my 40+ year old car into the 21st century. Heck, I even have fantasies of designing an independant rear suspension - I am a Mechanical Engineer so it is not so far fetched as it may sound! Others have a very different goal which is equally valid, so it all boils down to who you are.

I will take some pics of my wheels showing the calipers when I am finished. I have the chrome wheels so you will have a good idea of what the looks are and can add that to your equation.

[Twilight Fenrir]

Heck, I even have fantasies of designing an independant rear suspension - I am a Mechanical Engineer so it is not so far fetched as it may sound!

Actually, I was wondering about that one myself Esp. if could get the same type of torsion bar suspension as in the front

[xgecko]

The options for IRS are limited by the space available. I have not yet fully arrived at a workable solution and I am really waffling between how realistic it is and whether or not I should buy a new set of springs - which I have no real data to indicate I actually need which of course makes it even harder to decide.

IRS would improve handling somewhat, however, the current design is actually not bad for the most part so it is one of those things that may have more than performance criteria as the basis for why I would do it. The Coolness factor is in fact a major player here for me and it might be enough to make me do it esp. as my shop gets more tools and such. Eventually I think I will just have to make it happen, but that is likely to be a few years in the future after I get a parts car to use in protoyping... Of course I will keep the board posted if I do go this route.

Good luck with the brake upgrade and I am sure you will arrive at what is best for your needs. I'll let you know how I make out as soon as I have it back on the road.

[68 Toro]

Twilight Fenrir wrote, "preferably chrome".

I strongly advise you to acquire the wheels necessary for your disc brake conversion, even if they're not chrome. You can always chrome plate plain wheels in the future; whereas if you wait until what you want becomes available, your project may be stalled indefinitely. Another option is to have them powder coated, a less expensive alternative which may also have a quicker turn-around time. This is what I did and the outcome was excellent. In the future I will update my Toronado wheels website, including photos.

I also recommend purchasing the upper control arms from the same donor car that will be supplying the steering knuckles for your disc brake conversion. You cannot truly be sure that your 1966 upper control arms will be compatible with later model year steering knuckles. And what model year upper ball joints will you place between them? 1966?

If you gamble and are disappointed, then you will have wait while the salvage yard operator removes and ships the upper control arms, provided nobody else claimed them in the interim. And provided the salvage yard operator goes back to the same car for these parts. The salvage yard operator in my case accidently sent me upper control arms from a different year Toronado than the one from which he earlier removed the steering knuckles. Read my "Drum Lessons" web page to find out how his mistake happened, and how it caused me significant expense and delay. Drum LESSONS !

[Twilight Fenrir]

Oh, believe me, i've read your page top to bottom several times befpre decoding to go ahead with the swap. It's where I got all my information on the subject. Thank you very.mich for it

My car is driveable with the drum brakes now, it's only slightly more suicidal than my 86 Fiero. It's laid up only for wont of tires. I'm trying to find wheels in a salvage yard around here. If I find compatable wheels locally, i'll pick them.up, but i'm.nlt going through the expense of gettiing them here of they are not chrome already.

About the control arms and ball joints, I ordered a front end rebuild kit from Kanter, that has all 4 ball joimts, all bushings, tie rods, etc. and it's listed as 66-70. So my 66 has the same arms, and ball joints as the 69 i'm using parts from. Plus, someone with an interchange lookup says they're the same part. It's still something of a gamble I realize, but the odds are good enough.for me to take the chance.

[68 Toro]

Please periodically update us on your conversion, and let us know how the Kanter set works out.