Alignment

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GrantRees
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:11 pm
TOA Membership Number: 0
Years Owned: 1969 Toronado
Location: Vermont

Alignment

Postby GrantRees » Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:59 am

Greeting All:

I have a alignment / vehicle question. My 69 Toro pulls hard to the right. Hard. The car pulled previously but not as bad. I had it aligned at a new local shop. Once done it tracked straight but had a lot of "play" in the steering and wandered around on the road as a result. In a effort to "tighten" up the front end I: 1. replaced the bushing on the upper and lower control arms, 2. replaced the wheel bearing and the 3 upper and lower ball joints. After this work I had a the "new" shop align it - went nice and straight but there was a lot of float or play in the steering, it seemed and it wandered all over the road.

Step two was to replace the steering box and the "rag" joint coupler on the steering shaft. After this was done it was pulling right hard again. I tried to put the tie rods back where I found them but apparently not. I took it to a more established shop for an alignment b/c it was pulling hard right. Take your hands off the wheel and you'll be in the ditch directly. I took it to an established local shop for an alignment and the fellow said the he did the best he could but it's going to pull right because the ass end is out of alignment. He didn't think that there was much to be done about that given the Toro's construction. In the mean time it developed a nasty front end shimmy at lower speeds - <40. It's like the cords in one of the front tires broke. I drove it a bit anyway.

Anyway I jsut took it back to the "new" shop for an inspection and alignment since he got it to go straight before. Failed inspection - too much play in the front wheels - just like bad bearings although the bearing have less than 1k on them. I couldn't argue with them - they showed me the "wiggle" up and down and back and forth on the fronts. It's there. It's not right. I used National A-23's when I replaced the wheel bearings.. The "new" garage guy said there was some play in the pitman arm and the idler as well.
So, I have new wheel bearings on order. I'm going to replace those, again. I'm going to put 2 new front tires on it. I'm going to put in a new Pitman arm and a new idler arm. When all this is done I suspect it's still going to pull right.

So, after all that, here's the question - can the Toro go on a frame machine and have the ass end pulled back in to align or at least closer to it? To be fair, I saw, post purchase, that the rear right side of the frame has been welded. It looks to me like where the frames dips down behind the rear wheel that water sat in there and rusted through. there's a plate welded on the bottom there and on each side. I'm a fair welder and it looks like an okay job. So there's that.

In light of all the foregoing can / should I find a guy (or get a recommend) who and chain it up and pull it back in align or will the totally screw up the car.

I'm okay with selling it - being clear about the issue and staring over with another Toro or different vehicle altogether. I really like the Toro and have put a lot of hours and work into it. But if this is a hopeless disaster in terms of ever getting the car to go down the road nicely, maybe it's time to move on.

Thoughts or suggestions anyone?

Thank!

Grant

Otto Skorzeny
Posts: 1119
Joined: Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:41 pm
TOA Membership Number: 0
Years Owned: 1966 Toronado

Re: Alignment

Postby Otto Skorzeny » Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:30 pm

Anything can be fixed.

The real problem is that the actual cause of the misalignment/pull to the right wasn't identified in the first place so new parts were thrown at it hoping the problem would go away.

Now that you know the root cause of the misalignment (or at least have zeroed in on the likely suspect), you should be able to find an experienced body shop with proper frame straightening equipment. It takes skill but even unibody cars can be tweaked back into position.

Are you sure that the rear suspension isn't just out of alignment - loose bushings, bolts , wallowed out holes, or whatever? Once the car is lifted and carefully measured and inspected you can determine the exact cause.

If the rear frame rails are rusted or bent they can be repaired or remade, or even replaced with sections from a donor car.

I wouldn't give up on it. If you don't know where to find a shop that can do the work, start going to cruise ins and car shows and ask anybody you can who they recommend. Sooner or later you'll find a shop that comes highly recommended by the hot rod, collector car community.

bcroe
Posts: 222
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:25 pm
TOA Membership Number: 378
Years Owned: 79 Toronado or Eldorado

Alignment

Postby bcroe » Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:58 pm

It sounds like you almost had it, before you changed the steering box and
the rag joint. I think you should have only changed the rag joint, just
tighten the box. Once it stops pulling, it is just a matter of fixing everything
loose. Some toe in or other alignment can help with drifting. With rear leaf
springs, there is much chance for problems, and repairs. good luck, Bruce Roe

Schurkey
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:28 am
TOA Membership Number: 67

Re: Alignment

Postby Schurkey » Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:36 pm

I'm sorry you're having problems with this car.

GrantRees wrote:Failed inspection - too much play in the front wheels - just like bad bearings although the bearing have less than 1k on them. I couldn't argue with them - they showed me the "wiggle" up and down and back and forth on the fronts. It's there. It's not right. I used National A-23's when I replaced the wheel bearings.

Correct bearings, purchased improperly. [EDIT] depending on the source, I'm seeing that the A23 may be the proper, five-piece set rather than just a cup-and-cone two-piece set. [/EDIT]

You need TWO bearings, (two "cups" and two "cones") AND the select-fit spacer that separates them, on each front wheel assembly. The select-fit spacer is critical.

You'll need to order a pair (one for each front wheel) of NAPA BRG-BR23, (or the equivalent from some other supplier) which includes TWO bearings plus the spacer. Sit down before looking at the price.
Image
https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/BRGBR23 ... el+bearing

And when you have them in your hand, DO NOT mix and match the bearings as you pack them with grease. Two bearings, plus the spacer that they ship with are a matched, select-fit assembly. And THEN, you have to torque the bigass nut on the CV joint to spec.





For the record, the rear section of the "unibody frame" under my Toro--behind the front spring mount at the "real" frame--is so rotted I don't dare drive the thing. I've been putting-off welding fresh metal onto the car for...oh...a decade or more.

Francois
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:07 am
TOA Membership Number: 0
Years Owned: 1966

Re: Alignment

Postby Francois » Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:43 am

Hi,
Just so that you know, napa does not produce any bearing, those are from another manufacturer and they sell under their brand with a big profit :) They are made by SFK and sold on many websites way cheaper like Rockauto https://www.rockauto.com/en/partsearch/?mfr=SKF&parttype=1672&partnum=BR23 same part number (BR23) but nearly half the price.
Good luck with your problem,
François.

Otto Skorzeny
Posts: 1119
Joined: Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:41 pm
TOA Membership Number: 0
Years Owned: 1966 Toronado

Re: Alignment

Postby Otto Skorzeny » Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:45 am

$160 per side from NAPA is crazy.

Even at half the price its steep but what what choice do you have? Fortunately for me, my car doesn't need any yet.

Otto Skorzeny
Posts: 1119
Joined: Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:41 pm
TOA Membership Number: 0
Years Owned: 1966 Toronado

Re: Alignment

Postby Otto Skorzeny » Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:53 am

Shurkey and Francois, how did you locate that part at Rock Auto and NAPA? When I do a search on both sites for '66 Toro front wheel bearing, that part does not come up.

Francois
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:07 am
TOA Membership Number: 0
Years Owned: 1966

Re: Alignment

Postby Francois » Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:24 am

Hi Otto,
This is for a 69. I don't know if it will fit on a 66, maybe not... but the problem is on a 69

Otto Skorzeny
Posts: 1119
Joined: Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:41 pm
TOA Membership Number: 0
Years Owned: 1966 Toronado

Re: Alignment

Postby Otto Skorzeny » Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:46 am

Duh... Hahaha! I didn't even notice that. I'm so used to looking at '66 stuff I didn't look back at the original post!

Schurkey
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:28 am
TOA Membership Number: 67

Re: Alignment

Postby Schurkey » Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:38 am

'66, '67, and--I think-- '68 use a different wheel bearing that's all but discontinued. The last I saw, they were only available from specialist parts sources, and they make the later bearings look inexpensive.

An EXCELLENT reason to switch to the newer, single-piston disc brakes on the older cars, is that you get the newer wheel bearings inside the newer steering knuckles.

Yes, NAPA knows how to charge; seeing the five-piece set for "only" $65 threw me for a loop.


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