Winter upgrades on the list...

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xgecko
Posts: 454
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:21 pm
TOA Membership Number: 831
Years Owned: My first Toronado was a 1968 W-34 with the bucket seats and center console... (weeps gently) It was a New England rustbucket in 1982 after less than 14 years. So sad. But it is what infected me and before I knew it I had another '68, a '69, a '70 and eventually inherited a friend's '67 and another friends '73. After buying my brand new Grand Prix in 1988 I retired the last of my Toronados and pulled the 455 I had rebuilt along the way and put it into storage in a friend's barn where it is to this day.
In Mid September of 2010 I happened to see a repeat of the show where Jay Leno did his 66 Toronado and had an instant remission of the disease which resulted in my purchase of a 1969 in very good condition. I am now in the process of fully rehabilitating it and hope to have it on the road in the spring of 2011.
Location: Gig Harbor, WA

Winter upgrades on the list...

Postby xgecko » Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:26 am

Well, the Winter season is fast approaching up here in the Pacific Northwest... what's that you say? Winter? Isn't Fall the next season? Not up here. We go from Summer to Winter, usually in about 1 day or so. Winter means rain, and rain means I do not drive the Toronado. Not driving means I take it apart again and resume upgrading various systems in the car.

I have the following things I hope to accomplish this season in no particular order:

1.) Upgrade steering as mentioned in recent post. This involves sending the steering box off to Lee Manufacturing for a rebuild and upgrade of key components to provide proper steering effort and road feel. I will be truly glad to finally be able to feel the road under this fine driving machine and cannot wait to carve up some corners with the new steering box in place next year.

2.) Fuel Injection. I finally decided to go with the Holley HP EFI Universal Multiport system as I have the Rockewell aluminum manifold which has cast in bosses for the injectors. This will allow me to eliminate the much hated carb (which I never properly tuned anyway as it was just a temporary part so I could drive this year) and finally get the full power and throttle response I know this monster of a motor is capable of. This system looks to be the most advanced available that is still well integrated and relatively easy to implement. I considered throttle body injection but I really want the fine control that a sequential port injection can provide. This system will eventually be upgraded with the next item in the list, hopefully this season but it may have to wait if my budget does not allow for it this year.

3.) Distributorless Ignition System. The Holley HP EFI system is designed to support their integrated DIS module with a waste spark option so you only need four coils. This will also require a crank sensor to provide accurate crank position data and it will also allow me to fully customize the fuel/ignition map across all RPM ranges and all load conditions. If my wife is driving the car I can actually tune it using a laptop while she operates the engine! (yes, my wife is totally awesome and loves cars as well as most of the other things I am into. I got truly lucky with her! :mrgreen: ). While I was able to fine tune the spark advance with the HEI to eliminate knock on 92 octane with the 10.25 or so compression, I know that I will be able to obtain a substantial amount of performance once I am able to tune the ignition for the precise values needed for all load/rpm combinations. I probably will try to use the knock sensor option as well, so that would be the ultimate setup if I can make that work.

4.) Car Stereo. I have been so busy driving the car and trying to decide how I am going to install the stereo that I never got around to getting any kind of tunes set up. I have a midrange MP3 capable Kenwood head unit I recovered from the S-10 Truck I sold to pay for the Toro, and a 4-way digital amp from work along with a Kenwood sub amp for power. I have some Infinity Kappa 6 3/4" drivers for the rear and their nice little 4" x 6" plate speakers for the doors. The sub is an 8" low profile neodymium driver from Parts Express that should provide more than adequate bass in the car cabin given that I like good sound, not mega-thumpy bass overload like so many kids these days. I might try to locate it where the center speaker is mounted in the back, but it is not that simple so I am not sure what I will do. The biggest challenge here is that I am very reluctant to cut into the back deck for the rear main drivers, and there are all sorts of obstructions under there anyway. I did make some MDF spacer trim rings the other day, but am still having a hard time with the idea of cutting into the rear deck. I might build a couple of small enclosures to mount on a crossboard. Still undecided... :| :?

5.) Rear disk brakes. I have the Eldo sitting in my yard, just need to strip it and look into what it takes. Hopefully it is fairly straightforward perhaps just requiring a new mounting plate. We'll see... :P

6.) Modern leather power seats with integrated shoulder belt. I really want to upgrade the tired old seats and ancient three way belt system to a modern leather seat perhaps from a Cadillac.

7.) Air Conditioning. I did not enjoy the few hot days we had out here without AC. I have no regrets for buying a car without AC or power windows, but any notion that I did not need the AC evaporated in the heat of summer. I am really beginning to lean toward using my 68 for a parts car as there is more damage to the body than I initially realized and if I take it apart carefully I will be able to restore it later if I choose. In the meantime I can snag the AC Doghouse and associated valving from it to put into the 69. The only caveat here is that I am best off to do so with the motor removed, so I have to decide how far I want to go this year. As you will see below, the Transmission is also on my list, so I might just spend the 4 hours it takes to pull the power package and do both this season.

8.) Electric Windows and locks. My 68 can donate these parts but I will need to find new regulators as the 68 clearly has some major issues with the windows. I will definitely replace the motors, but the regulators are a different story. Not sure how to handle those yet, I probably will post a specific forum topic to see if anyone has any ideas on that. Sure am looking forward to a proper set of window controls... :ugeek:

9.) Steering Wheel upgrade. I am looking for a nice leather wrapped wheel to replace the original wheel and the absurd rim mounted horn switch system. Might do the whole column if I can find something that will work.

10.) Cruise Control. I found a very nice Dakota Digital system that will use a speedo cable sensor and a proper turn signal stalk replacement for the original stalk. This will provide a reliable, accurate and properly integrated modern cruise control.

11.) Headlight covers and actuator. I have two different thoughts here on both the covers and the actuator. I most likely will just grab the vacuum actuator from the 68 as it is the simplest way to go but I would love to identify a good electric actuator from some modern car to swap in. I also might (gasp!) :shock: put the 68 headlight covers on as well since the 69 were hacked up to remove the actual plate the hides the lights. :evil: :cry: I did, however, buy two squares of stainless steel mesh that I think will look super cool when powder coated black, and this way I am not frankensteining 68 bits onto a 69... :oops: It all depends on how ambitious I get.

12.) Rebuild the transmission. One of the justifications for the purchase of the 78 Eldo, aside from the rear disk brakes, is that it has the youngest possible transmission available for these cars. It just seems to make sense to rebuild the youngest possible transmission, so this one will go off to the rebuilder for a refresh and some tuning to provide firmer shifts at the optimal points for my motor.

That is the list of major items scheduled for this upcoming off season. Luckily the paint is in 10-foot condition meaning that it looks great at 10 feet so I can hold off on that for a few years. I am happy to say that the original Autumn Gold color has grown on me so I will almost certainly paint it the original color perhaps with some additional metallic flake and a nice pearl overlay coat followed by many clear coats. I am hoping for the kind of paint job you sort of feel like you could just jump into.

I can't wait for the next driving season. This car should be absolutely fantastic with these upgrades, and there are plenty of beautiful roads around here to spend countless hours cruising in this fine driving machine! 8-)
I have my Fuel Injected Toronado. Life is good! 8-)
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Twilight Fenrir
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Years Owned: 1982 Chevrolet El Camino
1986 Pontiac Fiero
1966 Oldsmobile Toronado

Re: Winter upgrades on the list...

Postby Twilight Fenrir » Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:43 am

xgecko wrote:12.) Rebuild the transmission. One of the justifications for the purchase of the 78 Eldo, aside from the rear disk brakes, is that it has the youngest possible transmission available for these cars. It just seems to make sense to rebuild the youngest possible transmission, so this one will go off to the rebuilder for a refresh and some tuning to provide firmer shifts at the optimal points for my motor.

Aaaactually.... you'd probably be better off rebuilding the oldest possible transmission, or at least steeling some parts from one.

'66 and '67 still had the variable-pitch stators built into the transmission. Which provided higher torque on heavy accelleration, and better fuel economy on cruising. IIRC, they discontinued them in '68.

You can add them to most newer transmissions, as they didn't bother to take the place for them out of the castings, but aftermarket parts aren't really made anymore...

I'm not gonna cast my opinion on most of the rest of your winter projects though :P Good Luck!
TOA #839

User avatar
xgecko
Posts: 454
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:21 pm
TOA Membership Number: 831
Years Owned: My first Toronado was a 1968 W-34 with the bucket seats and center console... (weeps gently) It was a New England rustbucket in 1982 after less than 14 years. So sad. But it is what infected me and before I knew it I had another '68, a '69, a '70 and eventually inherited a friend's '67 and another friends '73. After buying my brand new Grand Prix in 1988 I retired the last of my Toronados and pulled the 455 I had rebuilt along the way and put it into storage in a friend's barn where it is to this day.
In Mid September of 2010 I happened to see a repeat of the show where Jay Leno did his 66 Toronado and had an instant remission of the disease which resulted in my purchase of a 1969 in very good condition. I am now in the process of fully rehabilitating it and hope to have it on the road in the spring of 2011.
Location: Gig Harbor, WA

Re: Winter upgrades on the list...

Postby xgecko » Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:10 am

While your point has merit, it is not going to happen since I do not have a switch pitch transmission to rebuild.

I did look into it and in some respects you do have a good point. I had a 2500 rpm stall converter in my old Toro back in the day and the Switch Pitch converter effectively gives you a switchable stall converter. I would be able to use the 2.73 final drive (or whatever the taller ratio for our cars is) and still have strong launches. I might well have to look into this at a future date as it would help the highway mileage.
I have my Fuel Injected Toronado. Life is good! 8-)
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User avatar
xgecko
Posts: 454
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:21 pm
TOA Membership Number: 831
Years Owned: My first Toronado was a 1968 W-34 with the bucket seats and center console... (weeps gently) It was a New England rustbucket in 1982 after less than 14 years. So sad. But it is what infected me and before I knew it I had another '68, a '69, a '70 and eventually inherited a friend's '67 and another friends '73. After buying my brand new Grand Prix in 1988 I retired the last of my Toronados and pulled the 455 I had rebuilt along the way and put it into storage in a friend's barn where it is to this day.
In Mid September of 2010 I happened to see a repeat of the show where Jay Leno did his 66 Toronado and had an instant remission of the disease which resulted in my purchase of a 1969 in very good condition. I am now in the process of fully rehabilitating it and hope to have it on the road in the spring of 2011.
Location: Gig Harbor, WA

Re: Winter upgrades on the list...

Postby xgecko » Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:14 pm

You had to go and point out how a Switch Pitch convertor works... now I want one. You have me sold. It solve one of the problems I did not think was solvable; I can switch to a 2.73 final drive and keep strong launches while improving my highway mileage or I can just improve my launch.

Either way it does look very interesting indeed. Now I need to find an early trans or a switch pitch conversion kit...
I have my Fuel Injected Toronado. Life is good! 8-)
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User avatar
xgecko
Posts: 454
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:21 pm
TOA Membership Number: 831
Years Owned: My first Toronado was a 1968 W-34 with the bucket seats and center console... (weeps gently) It was a New England rustbucket in 1982 after less than 14 years. So sad. But it is what infected me and before I knew it I had another '68, a '69, a '70 and eventually inherited a friend's '67 and another friends '73. After buying my brand new Grand Prix in 1988 I retired the last of my Toronados and pulled the 455 I had rebuilt along the way and put it into storage in a friend's barn where it is to this day.
In Mid September of 2010 I happened to see a repeat of the show where Jay Leno did his 66 Toronado and had an instant remission of the disease which resulted in my purchase of a 1969 in very good condition. I am now in the process of fully rehabilitating it and hope to have it on the road in the spring of 2011.
Location: Gig Harbor, WA

Re: Winter upgrades on the list...

Postby xgecko » Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:08 am

Twilight,

If you had any doubts as to my willingness to take input they should now be dispelled... ;) I located at least one available transmission from a 67 that I have an option to buy and I am pretty certain I am going to do so even though I have the unit from the Eldo. You were right to point me to the SP as an interesting option and what is so cool about it is that it addresses the one thing I did not think I could solve - the need for better highway performance without sacrificing launch performance.

I now plan to buy that transmission and will base the rebuild on that unit unless for some crazy reason it were to make more sense to use it as a source of parts for the newer unit - I will probably have my tranny people decide based upon their inspection of both.

Thanks very much for the great idea! 8-)
I have my Fuel Injected Toronado. Life is good! 8-)
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toro_mike
Posts: 180
Joined: Thu May 14, 2009 6:31 pm
TOA Membership Number: 4
Years Owned: 1968 and 1969 W34
Location: Denver, CO
Contact:

Re: Winter upgrades on the list...

Postby toro_mike » Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:28 pm

Hey xgecko,

Make sure you contact Bruce Roe as he is the expert on these transmissions and especially switch pitch transmissions. He is a tech advisor for the TOA and his contact info is on page 1 of the Driver.
Mike
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1968 Toronado
1969 W34 Toronado

68 Toro
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Years Owned: 1968

Re: Winter upgrades on the list...

Postby 68 Toro » Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:09 pm

Several of the upgrades you mention are also on my list including sound system, modern seats, and cruise control. I have not tackled any of these yet as I anticipate there will be considerable problems for each project.

I brought my 1968 Toronado to a car stereo shop here in Miami. The bad news is that there is insufficient room, they said, for a modern replacement into the same location as the factory AM radio. They suggested a plywood or fiberglass console, bolted to the floor. That would have enough room for a double-DIN stereo (think: DVD player and GPS moving map navigator), cup-holders, and storage pockets. Keep the factory radio, they suggested, in case I ever want to sell the car (remove the upgrades). Luckily I already installed an upgraded alternator last year to run the electric radiator fans. I agree with installing the subwoofer where the rear seat speaker is located. Please keep us up to date on your installation.

From time to time I visit eBay to look at car seats. Here is my search phrase: "black leather power heated -(kit, kits)". Like you I am interested in the Cadillac seats because of their integral 3-point restraint. However since the seats are from a 4-door vehicle, they do not flip forward. This would make entry into the Toronado's rear seats more cumbersome. Seats that flip forward all seem not to have integral restraints like the Cadillac. Suppose we selected the Escalade seats and said 'to hell with our back seat passengers'. How would the restraint system perform in a major crash? Would the seats rip out of the floorboard, rendering the restraint system useless? Would the floorboard have to be reinforced somehow?

Cruise control, and intermittent windshield wipers, are both available as bolt-on aftermarket items. I would love to add both but am waiting to hear somebody else's experience first. Please let us know.
Dave B.
1968 Toronado
Miami, FL
TOA # 99

User avatar
xgecko
Posts: 454
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:21 pm
TOA Membership Number: 831
Years Owned: My first Toronado was a 1968 W-34 with the bucket seats and center console... (weeps gently) It was a New England rustbucket in 1982 after less than 14 years. So sad. But it is what infected me and before I knew it I had another '68, a '69, a '70 and eventually inherited a friend's '67 and another friends '73. After buying my brand new Grand Prix in 1988 I retired the last of my Toronados and pulled the 455 I had rebuilt along the way and put it into storage in a friend's barn where it is to this day.
In Mid September of 2010 I happened to see a repeat of the show where Jay Leno did his 66 Toronado and had an instant remission of the disease which resulted in my purchase of a 1969 in very good condition. I am now in the process of fully rehabilitating it and hope to have it on the road in the spring of 2011.
Location: Gig Harbor, WA

Re: Winter upgrades on the list...

Postby xgecko » Sun Oct 30, 2011 5:47 am

Interesting. The 1968 I bought for parts has a Panasonic radio in the stock location, I am going to be removing the instrument panel this season to see how they did it (They did hack the IP so I am going to use it in the 1969 since it is already hacked and I can preserve the original IP from the 1969). If it turns out to be a standard depth like the Kenwood units I use then you should look for a donor for the IP and do the same.

The Cruise Control I am looking at plugs into the speedo cable and is a digital system that has an electric actuator. I expect it to work very well.

I am actually intending to build a console much like you describe - my brother-in-law is a fiberglass guy and knows all the tricks so it should come out very nice. I'll post pics of it when I get to it.

You make a good point about the seats. I had forgotten they will need to be able to fold. Darn! You just made my search much harder! Wonder if there are any similar seats in the Cadillac CTS Coupe?
I have my Fuel Injected Toronado. Life is good! 8-)
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68 Toro
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Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:26 am
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Years Owned: 1968

Re: Winter upgrades on the list...

Postby 68 Toro » Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:48 pm

A visit to the Cadillac dealer should answer that question. None are near me though.

A worst-case scenario may involve using front seats from a non-GM car, so long as the seats have the following items:

1) Bucket, for lateral support

2) Leather surface

3) Flips forward to permit ease of entry to rear seats

4) Reclines

5) Built-in lap and shoulder belts (3-point restraints) having inertial-reels which retract and lock during sudden deceleration and lateral g-forces, to protect the occupants

6) Position electrically adjustible, including lumbar support and 2 "memory" positions

7) Heated (even Miami has cold mornings December - February)

8) Controls located on the side of the seat, to avoid lengthy wiring to dash or console

9) No stitched-in logos

10) Adjustible headrest height, and headrests are solid (so mobile DVD players can be installed for the rear-seat passengers)

11) Storage pockets behind seats

Given this extensive wish list, there is likely nothing that will fit my requirements. But if ever I find something that comes close, I will let everybody know.
Dave B.
1968 Toronado
Miami, FL
TOA # 99

User avatar
xgecko
Posts: 454
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:21 pm
TOA Membership Number: 831
Years Owned: My first Toronado was a 1968 W-34 with the bucket seats and center console... (weeps gently) It was a New England rustbucket in 1982 after less than 14 years. So sad. But it is what infected me and before I knew it I had another '68, a '69, a '70 and eventually inherited a friend's '67 and another friends '73. After buying my brand new Grand Prix in 1988 I retired the last of my Toronados and pulled the 455 I had rebuilt along the way and put it into storage in a friend's barn where it is to this day.
In Mid September of 2010 I happened to see a repeat of the show where Jay Leno did his 66 Toronado and had an instant remission of the disease which resulted in my purchase of a 1969 in very good condition. I am now in the process of fully rehabilitating it and hope to have it on the road in the spring of 2011.
Location: Gig Harbor, WA

Re: Winter upgrades on the list...

Postby xgecko » Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:07 pm

You just nailed my list of requirements so we can both look. I plan to try to do this over this winter, so I will definitely let you know if I find something.
I have my Fuel Injected Toronado. Life is good! 8-)
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