l Bearings

[GrantRees]

Greetings All:

I have a wheel bearing issue / question. First the background: 1969 Toronado. I've had it for a few years most of which time, though, it's been in in the garage and on and off the rack. I got it inspected when I first bought it and did drive it a bit. It was really uncertain on the road with a tendency to wander around the lane and generally did not instill much confidence in terms of what was going to happen next.

Anyway I tore in to the front end (in addition to some top end work on the motor) and sought some advice here some of which was pretty helpful. By way of eliminating some areas of suggestion, with regard to the front end currently, I replaced: the pitman arm, the idler arm, the power steering box, the rag joint and replaced all the control arm bushing with urethane bushings. I replaced the upper and lower ball joints as well and the tie rod ends. I also replaced the cv joints and put in new wheel bearing while I had the whole thing apart. I thought I would be in business. However when I took it out for a test ride it pulled really hard to the right. Take you hand off the wheel and end up in the ditch pretty directly.

I took it to our regular mechanic for an alignment assuming that I'd just missed on the alignment when installing the new tie rod ends. Anyway, this fellow, who is a pretty good mechanic, said he lined it as best he could up but it still pulled to the right but not as badly. He opinion was that the ass end may be out of line. I put it back up on the rack and made some measurement from a fixed point up front to the rear axel. It was about 3/8 - 1/2 off from driver to passenger side. I posted an inquiry here about whether the Toro can go on a frame machine. The answer was yes if the mechanic knows what he's doing. I took it to an old timer down the road recommended by our regular guy ( who does not have a frame machine ). The funny part of this saga is that the car sat for the winter and all summer until about labor day b/c of Covid when I took it to the alignment guy. Anyway during this period of time it occurred to me to order up some new tires for the front on the off chance that had something to do with the situation. Well, as Gomer Pyle would have said - Surprise, Surprise, Surprise - the car tracked straight as an arrow on the way to the alignment guy. Sigh.

Anyway, he's an inspection station as well so when I got there I explained the current status. ( I called for an appointment in July, but he said he didn't have an opening until the end of September). He got a chuckle out of the tire thing. Anyway, he put it up on the rack and said he couldn't pass it for inspection because there was too much play in the front wheels. I'd had another mechanic (who may have a pill problem) tell me this last year regarding the wheel bearings so I took it home after talking to pill guy and did the wheel bearings again - to be clear, I've put two new sets of wheel bearings in since I bought the car. The the first replacement set only had a few hundred miles on them but the car was pulling pretty badly while they were in there so..... I replaced them while doing the second half of replacing front end parts before seeing the alignment guy.

Anywhoo. I drove the car home from the alignment guy and put it up on the rack again. Sure enough there was some wobble in the front wheels. Both. I didn't really notice that when I replaced them, but I generally trust my work so didn't give the fronts a good yank back and forth after replacing the bearing. In all candor there was way too much play in the fronts. The alignment guy suggested that maybe they just needed re-torqued and had "seated" better on my way to his shop. I put the torque wrench on the axel nut and it was at 150 ft/ lbs. Maybe not the best practice, but I was getting frustrated with this so I put the impact wrench to the axel nuts and tightened them down some more. the wheel play did diminish but it's still there. If you yank back and forth on the front wheels, both, there's just a hint of play - it ain't much but you can feel it and hear it. I'm thinking it's still not going to pass inspection like this. I'm not wild about taking it in until I know it's going to pass - Here in Vermont if your car fails inspection it goes in the "system" with the reason for the fail and gets extra scrutiny next attempt no matter where you take it. The alignment guy did me a favor by not noting the fail in the system - he said he noticed the wheel bearing thing right off so just took it down off the lift. He didn't charge me and didn't note the "system".

Anywhoo, I'm flummoxed. I can't figure out why the fronts won't snug up. I've run the axel nut past 150 with the impact wrench. The manual doesn't say anything about wheel bearings other than to torque to 150. I've now put two sets of National A-23 bearings in the front with the same result. I've measured the set it came with and the first replacement set with a micrometer and all are within a thousandth or so. I didn't pull and measure the set that's in there now, but they have about 5 miles on them. I'm given to understand the the front bearing are a set and that you should not mix and match the component parts when replacing (which I didn't do).

Any thoughts or suggestions on why I'm can't get rid of the front wheel play. It's really not much, but it's there there's no denying. It's sitting on the lift now and I've thoroughly cleaned my shop while looking at it because I'm at a loss as to what to look at next in hopes of fixing this.

Any thoughts anyone?

Thanks and all the best for the new year.

Grant

[Otto Skorzeny]

I'll keep thinking about this and I'm going to post your story on a Cadillac forum I belong to. Several people on it are mechanics and there are a couple Toro people, too.

You're absolutely certain that the play is in the wheel bearings? You've got enough grease in the bearings, right?

[Willysnut1959]

Understanding that your front wheel bearings are different than the ones I have on my 1966, I found that the replacement CV shaft that I ordered from Cardone thru NAPA were not the same dimensions as my original and I sent it back. Here is what I found on my 1966.

The step in this CV shaft which rides in the oil seal is 2.560” vs. the original 2.701”. The OD of the threaded portion is 0.932” vs 0.992” on the original. (Probably doesn’t matter) The OD of the CV shaft which rides in the bearing is 1.493” vs. the original 1.502”creating loose fit.

I suggest you check the new CV shaft dimensions against your original one (and your bearings / races) and determine if your new CV shaft might be causing the problem you are experiencing.

Marty, St. Louis, MO

[Otto Skorzeny]

Here's my friend's reply from the other forum. He pretty much knows how to fix anything and has encyclopedic knowledge of practically every mechanical piece of equipment built in the last century. I'm not exaggerating. Among the many cars he owns is a first gen Toro.
To keep it short and sweet, from here, it looks like either the knuckle's bore is worn, or the wheel flange's bearing hub is worn.

That is speculated mostly because we're not hearing about the misery of repeatedly pressing the assembly apart and back together to change bearings, and destroying a seal each time. There is nothing "slip together" about the bearing pack. Cups are pressed fit into the knuckle. Cones are a press fit over the wheel flange's hub.

There is no bearing preload adjustment that can be done in the field. The bearing pack is preset at the factory, mostly by the thickness of the selective spacer located between the cups. Tightening the CV stub shaft nut +/- a hundred foot pounds will make no difference whatsoever to bearing adjustment. When bearings and hub components are at correct OE dimensions the fit up is right. When some part is worn the fit up is wrong, and there is no adjustment that can take it up.

Somewhere on here I believe that I posted a detailed knuckle overhaul, or two.

Anyway, in theory the outer (diameter, not inboard and outboard locations) races are held by a press fit into the knuckle. In practice retention is strongly dependent on the outboard seal being held firmly against the cups by the 3-bolt retainer. So, the outer seal must be of the correct fit to crush between the 3-bolt retainer and the bearing cups. A will-fit seal may do a proper job of sealing, but not of retaining the cups.

[Otto Skorzeny]

Probably driven for 30 or 40 years with worn out bearings.

Once a bearing "skids" on its mount the fit up is never the same, so a second skid is easier. Then, with a second skid... well you get it.

But wheel bearings were always a weakness with Eldonados.
I searched images hoping to find a random knuckle picture to attach to my reply. Seems that some folks feel a used knuckle is now worth $700.00!

He can still find a $35 one. As the talk seems so casual about "popping in" a bearing, I suspect it's worn components, that slip together easily.

[GrantRees]

HI Otto:
Thanks for getting back to me with you buddy's input. That does make some sense, I must say.

Even though I've done this job twice now, I'm having a bit of trouble "visualizing" the whole job and how it went. I have my manual here but at pg. 3EA-3 it shows the drum brake wheel ass. which is not all that helpful to my recall. I do recall that I had to press the bearings off the wheel hub with my 12 ton shop press - not that it in any way stress the press capabilities - and had to rig up my own version of tool BT-6906 out of 1/4" flat bar. I used a big socket to press the bearings back on.

What I can't remember is the fit back in to the knuckle when I re-assembled. I see what you're saying about the knuckle being "hollowed out" b/c the bearing spun in there. I don't recall seeing any scoring in the knuckle bore but then I was not really looking for that. Getting the bearings off and on the hub was not a total PITA but I could not have done it without a press and a cobbled together substitute for BT-6906. I do remember taking a deep breath at one point before pumping the press handle after it loaded up being worried that something would break, but the bearing broke loose and pressed right off.

I'm also wondering about the suggestion from Willysnut that maybe the replaced cv is not the correct size but I'm having trouble "seeing" how that will generate the wiggle - which, again, it not big, but is there. I did keep the old cv's so I can take some measurements so I can see what's what in that regard.



Last, I guess I'm not clear on the last part of your post re: the seals. Is the suggestion that if the outer seal seems to "Fit" but is not actually of the correct dimensions that such mis fit could precipitate the wiggle. As an aside, I'm kind of liking suggestion that a part may be the wrong size (the seal or the cv) not only because you suggest a replacement knuckle could go 700, but because the wiggle is the same on both sides. If I had knuckles that were "hollowed" it seems that damage would have to be the same on both sides to generate the same looseness on both sides. It seems a wrong part used on each side would create the same problem on each side which is what I have.

In any case I'm most grateful for the suggestions. I guess I'll get out there now that I have some ideas and start taking stuff apart again : ( in hopes of seeing what's what's what.

Thanks, Cheers! and Happy New Year.

GRant





To keep it short and sweet, from here, it looks like either the knuckle's bore is worn, or the wheel flange's bearing hub is worn.

That is speculated mostly because we're not hearing about the misery of repeatedly pressing the assembly apart and back together to change bearings, and destroying a seal each time. There is nothing "slip together" about the bearing pack. Cups are pressed fit into the knuckle. Cones are a press fit over the wheel flange's hub.

There is no bearing preload adjustment that can be done in the field. The bearing pack is preset at the factory, mostly by the thickness of the selective spacer located between the cups. Tightening the CV stub shaft nut +/- a hundred foot pounds will make no difference whatsoever to bearing adjustment. When bearings and hub components are at correct OE dimensions the fit up is right. When some part is worn the fit up is wrong, and there is no adjustment that can take it up.

Somewhere on here I believe that I posted a detailed knuckle overhaul, or two.

Anyway, in theory the outer (diameter, not inboard and outboard locations) races are held by a press fit into the knuckle. In practice retention is strongly dependent on the outboard seal being held firmly against the cups by the 3-bolt retainer. So, the outer seal must be of the correct fit to crush between the 3-bolt retainer and the bearing cups. A will-fit seal may do a proper job of sealing, but not of retaining the cups.[/quote]

[Otto Skorzeny]

Hi Grant,

You can find knuckles in a reasonable $50 range. People just think that because a part is for a Cadillac it must be worth 10x what the same thing would be for a Chevy or Olds.

I'm going to show your reply to Denrep and see if he has any other thoughts on the matter.

[Otto Skorzeny]

Here's some new information from my friend:

The wheel flange and knuckle are probably not at issue if it took at least some press pressure to assemble the components.

CV stub shaft length being at OE dimensions is critical. The stub shaft holds the inboard and outboard bearing cones "crushed" together in solid contact with each other.

None of the following is an issue with unworn OE parts, however with aftermarket parts it should be noted that:
Where the splined stub shaft meets the CV joint it must be radiused so that a flat surface contacts the inboard bearing cone.

At the threaded end of the stub shaft, the splines must end "short" of the wheel flange. Again, so that the wheel flange can contact the outboard bearing cone and keep it in crush with the inboard bearing. If the axle nut bottoms on the stub shaft without crushing the bearing cones together the bearing fit-up will be loose. At assembly fit-up may initially seem correct, but the first road shock or two would certainly knock the the bearing cones apart from each other if not "clamped" together by the stub shaft.

[Otto Skorzeny]

Dewar Trophy be damned, these bearings take gunsmith custom fitting to get right.


In theory it'd seem that the press fit holds the cups in the knuckle. In practice Seal #9 actually acts as a spacer/retainer so that Retainer #5 holds the bearing cups bottomed in knuckle #11. Thus, all these parts must stack up to the correct height.

There is a Spacer (#8?) which went MIA on Cadillac and is not accurately illustrated nor addressed in parts and service literature. It is a 3-hole triangle shaped flat.
I believe, but I'm not positive, that this Spacer was originally of selective-fit thickness.

Anyway, ultimately what needs to be made sure of is that Retainer #5 holds pressure on "bottomed" bearing cups, via Seal #8. If Seal #8 is short, it may seal, but will not help to keep the bearing cups home.

Some Misfit types will drill and tap the knuckle at the bearing spacer (center part of #10) location and install a grease fitting. If the bearing is apart a small notch can be ground into the bearing spacer, that creates a sure grease path for lubricating the bearings.

[Otto Skorzeny]

A comment from another individual that might be relevant:

I do remember reading on the MoBo about remanned Eldorado shafts. There were some out there that were not quite the thickness in the mating flanges as the OE parts were and were sold as 'New' parts. Many suggested to have the OE parts rebuilt due to the fact that aftermarket parts were not of the correct size.

Not sure if this has anything to do with Grant's problem or not, just throwing it out there. I read threads like those because they do concern me in a way. I really hope that I never have to get into this on my car. The CV's are nice and tight and the boots soft and supple with no splitting or cracking that I can see. I also try not to turn the steering wheel to a full lock position unless needed. Plus with only 36k on the clock, I hope to get at least 75k out of the CV's.

I don't have a shop press, but do have access to such items if really needed. But, there is no substitute to someone that has been inside these things and really knows what to look for during disassembly and reassembly.