octane for 425

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oltoronut
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octane for 425

Postby oltoronut » Sun Jan 24, 2016 10:21 am

Hi wondering if I should be using an octane booster in my 1966 toro. Also is the lack of lead in fuel today a problem for the valves.

Brenden

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Otto Skorzeny
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Re: octane for 425

Postby Otto Skorzeny » Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:46 pm

Don't worry about the unleaded gas. Amoco super unleaded "white gas" was introduced in 1923. It won't hurt your Toro.

My daily driver since 2001 is a 1956 Cadillac I have never had a problem with unleaded gasoline and never use additives.

My '66 Toro uses premium unleaded 92 octane (or 91, 93 depending on what's available) and runs just fine. There's no need to increase your octane rating any higher than that with additives.

If, for some reason your car knocks or pings using premium unleaded, the timing is probably set too far advanced. Set it to spec and see what happens. If it still knocks, retard it slightly.

All this is assuming that your car is in good shape and everything working properly (dizzy, coil, plugs, wires, etc.)

oltoronut
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Re: octane for 425

Postby oltoronut » Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:43 pm

Thanks My toro only has 62K and has electronic ignition and hot coil... It runs good just didn't want to hurt the old girl.

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xgecko
Posts: 455
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Years Owned: My first Toronado was a 1968 W-34 with the bucket seats and center console... (weeps gently) It was a New England rustbucket in 1982 after less than 14 years. So sad. But it is what infected me and before I knew it I had another '68, a '69, a '70 and eventually inherited a friend's '67 and another friends '73. After buying my brand new Grand Prix in 1988 I retired the last of my Toronados and pulled the 455 I had rebuilt along the way and put it into storage in a friend's barn where it is to this day.
In Mid September of 2010 I happened to see a repeat of the show where Jay Leno did his 66 Toronado and had an instant remission of the disease which resulted in my purchase of a 1969 in very good condition. I am now in the process of fully rehabilitating it and hope to have it on the road in the spring of 2011.
Location: Gig Harbor, WA

Re: octane for 425

Postby xgecko » Wed Jan 27, 2016 7:34 am

I was very curious about Otto's response so I did some research and there is evidence for the idea that you may be able to drive for a while on unleaded if you do nothing to the valve seats, but this appears to rely on leftover lead clinging to the valves and does not appear to be a viable long term solution. It also assumes the car was driven with leaded gas long enough to produce such deposits while not being driven much since that time... a set of conditions that does not seem very likely nowadays.

The consensus appears to be that you can get away with it for a while if you drive easy, but the rotation of the exhaust valve eventually will wear the seat away. This is very hard to prevent as the rotation is intentional and was intended to scrub off lead and carbon deposits. The lead lubricated the valve as it rotated and the lead coating ablated (wore away) but was continually replenished by the lead in the gasoline. Modern gas of course lacks this so eventually the seat is likely to be damaged.

This is not an absolute certainty, but it is something I personally would not be comfortable with over the long run. In my case I seem to put around 6,000 miles per year on my car, and I drive it quite hard, so in my case I am very glad I spent the money for the Edelbrock Aluminum heads which of course have hardened valve seats from the get go.

I think the final consideration is that you can run old seats for about 15,000 to 20,000 miles, but after that you are likely to see wear on the exhaust valves. This information may help you determine what the optimal course of action for your particular situation is.

Hope that helps!

EDIT: As for octane, I have trouble with pump gas and that seems a bit odd but I cannot find a cause for detonation at various throttle positions. My solution for this - I have around 10:1 compression which is very close to stock - is to add Water/Methanol injection which I should have installed by the summer. I will let you know how well it works, but past experience strongly suggests it will do the trick. As for octane boosters? They should work but I have had little success with them. I should qualify this with the comment that I have also had issues with PCV Oil transfer such that I built up a lot of carbon, and carbon can of course cause detonation. I hope to sort all this out over this upcoming season, so eventually I should be able to advance the timing from my current 30 degrees to around 36 where it should be. I will see a significant increase in power which I am looking forward to!
I have my Fuel Injected Toronado. Life is good! 8-)
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Otto Skorzeny
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Re: octane for 425

Postby Otto Skorzeny » Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:31 am

I think the key here is "normal driving". The wear on the exhaust valves is so small as to be insignificant with normal driving habits. Also, when it eventually becomes time to do a valve job, by all means have hardened seats installed in the heads.

There's no need to take apart a perfectly fine running engine to install hardened valves seats as any sort of preventive measure. Most drivers will never notice or experience a problem.

I've put about 80,000 miles on my '56 Cadillac without using lead additives and without installing hardened seats. If I ever remove the heads for a valve job or engine rebuild, I'll have hardened seats installed at that time.

I agree that racing engines and engines driven under severe conditions would benefit from lead additives and/or hardened seats installed as a preventive measure. I don't think Brenden is going to be auto-crossing his car any time soon so he'll be fine.

I'd be willing to bet that Brenden's car has been driven without additives for the last 40 years and hasn't exhibited any signs of trouble. If his engine was rebuilt before he got it any time in the last 20 years it probably already has hardened seats installed.

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xgecko
Posts: 455
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:21 pm
TOA Membership Number: 831
Years Owned: My first Toronado was a 1968 W-34 with the bucket seats and center console... (weeps gently) It was a New England rustbucket in 1982 after less than 14 years. So sad. But it is what infected me and before I knew it I had another '68, a '69, a '70 and eventually inherited a friend's '67 and another friends '73. After buying my brand new Grand Prix in 1988 I retired the last of my Toronados and pulled the 455 I had rebuilt along the way and put it into storage in a friend's barn where it is to this day.
In Mid September of 2010 I happened to see a repeat of the show where Jay Leno did his 66 Toronado and had an instant remission of the disease which resulted in my purchase of a 1969 in very good condition. I am now in the process of fully rehabilitating it and hope to have it on the road in the spring of 2011.
Location: Gig Harbor, WA

Re: octane for 425

Postby xgecko » Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:32 am

Otto, I do not in general disagree, especially with the idea that you can just drive it until you know it needs new seats if they do wear. It is not an unreasonable approach and in many if not most cases is truly the way to go unless you have plans to tear the engine down for some other reason.

That said, I suspect that eventually - after the stated 15,000 to 20,000 miles if not before - that the rotation of the exhaust valve will almost certainly begin to eat the valve seat if it has not been hardened. However, as mentioned above, it is quite reasonable to wait until you have proof positive the valve seat has been eaten before you address it unless you have plans to tear it down.

I checked with a friend that owns a shop and has extensive experience with classic cars and their motors and he pretty much confirmed what I am saying above although he said you may not get even a few thousand miles out of it depending on the past history. We did agree it can wait until there is a real issue, however, so again running it 'til they are gone is not out of the question by any means.

I would run it until you know you need to do something. You may find it already has hardened seats and you may never lose any power.
I have my Fuel Injected Toronado. Life is good! 8-)
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Eightballz
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Re: octane for 425

Postby Eightballz » Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:27 am

i would also like to add: the fact that you don't notice any detonation by ear does not mean your engine does not have any issues with it.

dont really know how to detect properly but maybe you find signs of detonation on your spark plugs.

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xgecko
Posts: 455
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:21 pm
TOA Membership Number: 831
Years Owned: My first Toronado was a 1968 W-34 with the bucket seats and center console... (weeps gently) It was a New England rustbucket in 1982 after less than 14 years. So sad. But it is what infected me and before I knew it I had another '68, a '69, a '70 and eventually inherited a friend's '67 and another friends '73. After buying my brand new Grand Prix in 1988 I retired the last of my Toronados and pulled the 455 I had rebuilt along the way and put it into storage in a friend's barn where it is to this day.
In Mid September of 2010 I happened to see a repeat of the show where Jay Leno did his 66 Toronado and had an instant remission of the disease which resulted in my purchase of a 1969 in very good condition. I am now in the process of fully rehabilitating it and hope to have it on the road in the spring of 2011.
Location: Gig Harbor, WA

Re: octane for 425

Postby xgecko » Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:45 am

Indeed you are correct. The best way to resolve this is to put a sound transducer in the appropriate location. However, this probably can be dealt with by simply using audible knock as the signal and then backing off an additional half or full degree...

Plugs can show evidence of detonation but are not absolutely reliable. There is no direct evidence of detonation, but lean conditions do contribute to detonation and you can read lean or hot plugs which suggest the possibility.
I have my Fuel Injected Toronado. Life is good! 8-)
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bcroe
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Years Owned: 79 Toronado or Eldorado

octane for 425

Postby bcroe » Thu Jan 28, 2016 2:00 pm

Decades ago I had pretty good performance with water injection stopping pinging. It took
a lot of water (under heavy throttle only), and sometimes the nozzles clogged. It wouldn't
help the valve seats, but it does clean out carbon in the cylinder. Bruce Roe

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xgecko
Posts: 455
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:21 pm
TOA Membership Number: 831
Years Owned: My first Toronado was a 1968 W-34 with the bucket seats and center console... (weeps gently) It was a New England rustbucket in 1982 after less than 14 years. So sad. But it is what infected me and before I knew it I had another '68, a '69, a '70 and eventually inherited a friend's '67 and another friends '73. After buying my brand new Grand Prix in 1988 I retired the last of my Toronados and pulled the 455 I had rebuilt along the way and put it into storage in a friend's barn where it is to this day.
In Mid September of 2010 I happened to see a repeat of the show where Jay Leno did his 66 Toronado and had an instant remission of the disease which resulted in my purchase of a 1969 in very good condition. I am now in the process of fully rehabilitating it and hope to have it on the road in the spring of 2011.
Location: Gig Harbor, WA

Re: octane for 425

Postby xgecko » Fri Jan 29, 2016 10:51 am

I also used a primitive form of water injection on my first Toronado engine. It worked well enough to prompt me to use it again for the same reason although the new system is far superior to the old one. Not sure yet what the consumption will be, and I will be using a water/methanol mix - basically blue windshield washer fluid or the equivalent from Snow Performance.

I will most likely install this along with the cruise control and the headlight cover actuator this spring. I will report my findings.
I have my Fuel Injected Toronado. Life is good! 8-)
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