1966 Toronado 425 V8 engine overhaul need help

[harascho]

Hi folks,

after finishing my '66 some serious engine problems led to a 2nd engine removal and teardown. Here are the facts I know until now:

When I bought the car in CA 2012 it was partly disassembled. It was claimed that the engine had been overhauled. Further it was claimed to be +0.030 overbored and a mild cam was fitted. That's all I was told. The car wasn't driven any long time since then in the hands of the last owner.

I didn't touch the engine except:
removed the valve covers, oil pan, intake, front cover

I found:
a new camshaft, new lifters, new valve train, a very clean top end, new pistons and an overall very very clean engine. A new timing gear was also visible.

After completing my work and the engine running after a carb overhaul I found out that the oil pressure was very low:
>40 PSI when cold at about 2000rpm,
hot idling in P 8,5 PSI,
hot idling in D 6 PSI
I use Castrol Classic 20W50 oil. Those numbers could still be ok but I had to learn that I am missing one oil baffle, the one that keeps the oil in the sump area when braking. The baffle under the oil pump is there, the on on the 4th main cap not. Every time I was braking harder the oil light came on.

Next thing is oil consumption:
I had a horrible oil consumption of about 2qt on 100mls and it was smoking badly

Last thing: Top end is flooding with oil. When driving a little faster the oil was dripping out of the PCV systems air inlet on the rear of the right valve cover. It flooded the air cleaner at one time. I have to ad that the VAC is good and the PCV valve new. So this is the result of the valve covers filling with oil. I check the oil drain back at one point. Not blocked, I pured oil into it and heard it running down in the pan. I also could insert a small plastic tube.

Now on the last test drive the engine flooded the top again and started to sound like an old harvester. for be a bearing failure from the sound of it... we will see later..

So I removed the engine and started the disassembly:

here's what I have today (botomm still not disassembled, will be done next week..)
The pistons have a sign 030 on them so I guess the overbore of 0.030 was really done.
The lifters move easily and lifters, rockers and pushrods like new.

When I got the bottom end disassemled I will check the main and rod bearing clearances and check the crank journals. It depends if I need a crank crind or not the bearings will be ordered and installed accordingly. The crank will be balanced before of course.

Now the questions arise:

what parts should I install, considered I want a reliable street driver with some extra power?

what cam, lifter , rocker combination,
what oil pump?
what to do about the top and flooding. The only reason I see are wrong metering discs in the current lifters. They are responsible for the amount of oil pumped to the rockers.

this is what I would like to do:
mild roller cam, adjustable valvetrain with roller rockers, melling HV pump with screw on pickup.
I adressed Mondello in that matter but no answer yet.
Attached are some pics of the mess.

Your input is very much needed..
regards from Germany

Harald

[roland]

Harald,

I´m wonder about your 20W50 oil. 1966 owner manual tells us 10W30. May be one reason for high oil consumption!?

Bad smoking and pumping oil through pcv seems worn or brocken lower piston oil-ring(s).

Grüße aus Bayern

[harascho]

Hi Roland,

the Castrol Classic 20W50 is a special oil suitable for older engines. The higher viscosity was choosen to overcome the low oil pressure...didn't work either..

I will know about the rings soon, but I think I will find all intact.. we will see. Remember the engine was rebuilt at some point in 2010 or so and wasn't driven at all since then. My guess are the lifters but I have no safe information which brand / type lifters are really the correct ones.

Grüsse aus Hessen

harald

[bcroe]

Its a shame to see that happen to a good engine. Stories like that are why I always advise not
doing anything to a short block unless it really does have a serious issue. First the oil pressure
problem has to be fixed. Toro has a big deep pan, there is no excuse for the oil light coming
on. You could add a high volume pump, but that shouldn't be needed for a lot of miles. The
oil pickup seems to be welded, I wonder if its actually at the bottom, extra low for a Toro. Check
your bearing clearances, and maybe an oil plug is missing inside, near the distributor.

Oil use is ridiculous, its either the rings or the valves. good luck, Bruce Roe

[Otto Skorzeny]

I posted your post on another website.

Here is one response:


Hmmmm.... I'm surprised that much oil could get "upstairs" via the push-rods.

Olds played games with the lifter diameter and bore angle.
I'd be suspicious of some sort of mismatch there and concentrate homework on same.

Unfortunately, with the described runs, there's probably bearing damage by now.

[harascho]

Thanks Otto for forwarding the post. I am with a friend in the south of france right now where we assemble his '67 Toronado. We hope to have it running the comming weekend. After that, when I'm at home, I will finish the disassembly of my engine. I will carefully check and measure everything until I know what caused my problems. This time I try to be 100% sure what is going on when I install the engine.
I still need a valuable parts source and some advice on parts ( oil pump, lifters...)

Harald

[Otto Skorzeny]

Try this company. Everything is made in the USA, not some Chinese crap.

http://egge.com/

They also rebuild rocker assemblies, oil pumps, etc. I've also found that it's a good idea to call them because not everything is on the website and they have a lot of technical knowledge and advice.

[Doc Hubler]

Harald,

I think Otto's theory is the best one out there that explains what you're seeing. His suggestion of Egge Machine is a good one for needed parts. I assume you have no documentation of what was used for this car before you bought it. This too shall pass; you'll soon figure it out soon. Look forward to seeing you and your friend on the road! Hope your friend can also post pictures of his car also.

[Otto Skorzeny]

Mechanic #1: I wonder if Olds used some sort of restrictor to control oil volume to the lifter galley, and if maybe that was left out?

But you'd think the OE lifter design -with tiny feed hole in body- would itself be enough restriction to meter flow to push-rod.
I'm leaning towards a scenario where somehow the replacement lifters deviate from OE design, allowing a higher volume of oil through.

Or is the head gasket or valley pan of wrong design, and somehow can restrict drain-back?

Mechanic #2: My thought too, he said he could insert a small plastic straw into the drainback holes, but I wonder if the head gaskets could be on wrong (or for the wrong engine model), not restricting the return flow completely but enough to cause the problem.

[harascho]

Hi there,
you two are on the right track. Biggest problem is I do not have any information about the previous "overhaul". I only see some parts looking like new and a quite clean lifter valley, top end....

So the disassembly and measuring, identifying of all parts used, is top priority. Only thing for sure are the +.030 pistons. All dimensions of the lower end and pics follow. I will have to order a good internal diameter gauge set.

To the top end oil problem: of course all restrictions in the oil path from top to bottom are important. I remember two threads here, first, there was a guy who installed a clear plastic part in his valve covers to see what was going on. There was something about Mondello and Egge lifters and fountains of oil comming out of the pushrods... I must look for this guy and second I read a post from Sparkey somewhere where he wrote about oil restriction kits. The summary was that the only thing flooding the top end were wrong lifters and not the oil support to the lifters..

I attach a few pics of Nicolas' 1967 Toronado to get you curious guys satisfied...

regards
Harald