1968 W34 Toronado

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xg413
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Re: 1968 W34 Toronado

Postby xg413 » Thu May 22, 2014 10:03 am

The F code is 3 and the build date is 03D IIRC. I will get the cast date when I get a chance to look at it again tomorrow.

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69W34
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Re: 1968 W34 Toronado

Postby 69W34 » Sat May 24, 2014 6:11 pm

........s'cus me for showing my dumbness but what is IIRC ????????? I've seen it before but ??????????
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xg413
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Re: 1968 W34 Toronado

Postby xg413 » Sun May 25, 2014 2:44 pm

IIRC = If I Recall Correctly. I'm new to this text lingo as well, but I have two teenagers to help me out.

These two pictures show that the block is a 68 F3 block that was cast on 18-March-1968. The car was built the fourth week of March which was at most 11 days later. How does this information stack up to the thought process as to when the forged cranks were installed into cars?
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69W34
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Re: 1968 W34 Toronado

Postby 69W34 » Sun May 25, 2014 8:55 pm

Whoa .......... what we're looking at is almost an impossibility, especially when one considers the following. The casting date insert is a fixed to the 'positive' mold, it (the mold) is then encased in sand mold thus creating a 'negative' the two half's of the mold are separated and the pieces of the mold are removed, the two negative half's are rejoined ready for casting.
The problem is we really don't know what that 'casting date' represents, but more on that later*. Once poured the block needs to cool and to season or (stress out) before machining can begin otherwise run the risk of the block distortion during the machining process. Then we know the built date seems to represent the order date of the car, so one could add a number of days to that stated eleven still, no where near enough time to find its way into the car as a complete motor in 10 -20 days my opinion. which brings up to why the 68 on the back of the block.

As for the 455 forged cranks, supposedly it had a very short lived production run, in one quarter it is stating it lasted only a month at the beginning of 68 production. This puts us at the earliest the end of July 67 to the beginning of Sept 67, six or so weeks clearly that doesn't hold water (should this turn out to be a forged crank)

* now this brings us to a numbers of Questions: What does the casting date represent? Is it the date the mold was prepped? Is it the date that is most-likely the mold would be poured? Is it a projected date when machining could begin? How long did the mold sit before it was actually cast? How long does a newly cast block need to sit to properly cure before machining can begin?
Now the big one, did at the beginning (very early) in the 455 -396021F block production was 68 cast into the mold as the year indicating application, It would not be unreasonable to say that 68 455 blocks would be cast in 67!
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Otto Skorzeny
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Re: 1968 W34 Toronado

Postby Otto Skorzeny » Tue May 27, 2014 4:38 am

So do I interpret this to say that a forged crank in any particular car was more or less random? In other words, forged cranks were not made for any specific car or group of cars.

Any car that happens to have a forged crank is purely a luck of the draw, so to speak, depending on when that particular engine made it to the assembly plant and what car happened to be coming down the line when it was ready to be installed. Right?

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Re: 1968 W34 Toronado

Postby 69W34 » Tue May 27, 2014 6:26 pm

Well its best explain this way for those of us that have visited and explored Olds FAQ's web page hosed by 442.com have found it to be a wealth of information. There are however more than a few holes with in the submitted information.

SO let me first qualify (Take nothing away from anyone) that over the years has submitted information,documentation for use with OLDS FAQ's or in support or in contradiction to previous submissions, I do though believe they were always provided/submitted in good in good faith based on the information available at the time. I do however speak from my own experiences and observation.

below is a copy and past from olds FAQ's
Forged 455 Crank

The really big news is... was this crank in a Toronado engine? No. An H/O engine [as owner said rumor was]? No. This forged steel 455 crank was right out of a freshly dismantled, numbers-matching.... 1968 455 low compression, presumably 2-V engine, car possibly equipped with a tow package. This has been confirmed by another lucky person. The evidence:

VIN deriv 38M250256
Engine Unit # 8284939
Block cast on day 15 [Jan 15]
Dist'r #1111288 8A1 '68 LC 455, made Jan01
Xst mans A-T, cast on day 2-?
C heads, small valve, cast on day 3-13 or 13-13 [rusty]

Supposedly forged cranks came in every 455 produced during the first month of production for the 1968 model year. It has been found that the steel 455 crankshaft was used in all 455's during the first month of production. Check the julian date code on your motor. It was probably cast in July of '67. It is NOT found exclusively in Toro's, but are rare indeed.

Motor mounts were on the forward pair of holes, and only the rear block drain holes were drilled (as all blocks destined for full size cars were), thus negating the theory that it was an H/O motor.

Specifics:
400943 crank, numbers barely visible, on the rear weight. Notch in rear face is a 'rounded-L' shape, longer than say a 425's L, and the corner is smooth, not a nice right angle. Just like Mondello's tech manual shows, except he shows a sharp corner there. Forging flash removal left a very wide "part line" as per usual for a forging. The front throw has "AC" stamped in it.
[ Thanks to Chris Witt, Luke Hogan, Tony Waldner for this information ]


So, it is stated above that forged cranks were used in the first month or so of 68 production as ( I stated previously) that would have to be late July 67 to early Sept 67 which would mean the casting date of block stated above would have be Jan 15, 67 I contend the casting date of the W34 is that march of 67 as well and NOT of march 68, which would lead me to believe the forged cranks were used far longer that originally thought. And this as it is said. should bring the people out of the wood work.
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Re: 1968 W34 Toronado

Postby 69W34 » Tue May 27, 2014 8:56 pm

So do I interpret this to say that a forged crank in any particular car was more or less random? In other words, forged cranks were not made for any specific car or group of cars.

Any car that happens to have a forged crank is purely a luck of the draw, so to speak, depending on when that particular engine made it to the assembly plant and what car happened to be coming down the line when it was ready to be installed. Right?


To answer the first part ( or as least take a good stab at it) it would seam so, the car above was said to be a low compression 2bbl 455, what one does not know is the the built date of the a fore car though it would appear to have some what higher VIN.

Having worked on the main line in Lansing in late 67 we were running 96 car an Hr. x-8 Hr. x2 shifts x5 days a week = 150 working days or 30 weeks given this, that and anything else = 230,000, 88's 98's Cutlasses, 442's and so forth the toros were on a separate line the vin on that car 38M250256 where is its place line, I don't know one would need base line info from other cars to extrapolate a time frame. I will go out on a limb and suggest repeat suggest that car and the W34 were built at or about the same time ... that does not in any was say when the motors built given casting dates, and you can not cast a block as stick it in a car in two weeks or less it just ain't gonna happen.

Now ..... to answer the second part, other than the paper work the blocks has no idea where there going, this would apply to the machining as well, but once pick up from the machining line the paperwork associate with the original vehicle order will call out how the motor would need to be built, with short block 455 assembily with H or L compression, as for the crank usage by all indication two were available the cast Nodular and the forged and just how it was determined as to what went where is anyone's guess.
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xg413
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Re: 1968 W34 Toronado

Postby xg413 » Wed May 28, 2014 1:49 pm

Maybe the forged cranks were reserved for the W34 cars. Has there been evidence of a W34 WITHOUT a forged crank? Since there were only 111 or so built, maybe the others were randomly placed in other cars as they came down the line.

I would assume that this engine was cast in 1968, as March of 1967 would be way too early for 455's to be produced. After all, 617,696 sequence number seems later in the production run. Did Toronados start with a certain number (say 5 or 6?)

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Re: 1968 W34 Toronado

Postby 69W34 » Wed May 28, 2014 5:25 pm

The copy and paste example in Blue vin 38M250256 was a 68 low compression 2bbl 455 supposedly with trailer tow. As for forged cranks being held out for W34
can't answer that ... though not likely.
The toro vins were 38M600001 -02-03-04 the 6 seams to the indicate the 60's as in 71 the vin changed to 31M700001.
Being a March car, with vin sequence 17,696, remember production starts in late July early Aug of 67 there is no way a block could cast in 68 hence I contend that all early 455 had the 68 cast into the back of the block. More over there is simply not enough time to have a 78 casting date block to find it way into march built car as stated 11 days later it just ain't enough time. So I contend the casting was done in 67.
Keep in mind the GM had CFD facility (Central Foundry Division) all five divisions would be getting their stuff done by them too. Castings were done far in advance of production if for no other reason if something were to go wrong with the foundry and were forced to shut down they were screwed and production would be come 'literally' to a screaming halted and heads would roll.
What happens when a labor strike hits? Its the some thing!
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xg413
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Re: 1968 W34 Toronado

Postby xg413 » Wed May 28, 2014 7:18 pm

Would it be possible that the 03D build date on the Fisher Body tag be the week when the BODY was built in the Euclid, Ohio plant with the actual build date of the car coming shortly thereafter?


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